Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sammi on November 25, 2013 at 12:50pm

1. Do you consider yourself a feminist?  Why or why not?  Yes, I believe in equality for all, and feminism is the cornerstone of that belief.  We are all equal, whatever our gender, and that is the 'fight' that feminism is, it's a group of people against the patriarchal society that says that white, able-bodied, and male is not only what we all want to be, but what we all should be.

2.Do you think that feminism can go hand in hand with being a pin-up?  How so?  Yes.  Everything about feminism is about people having choice and having the right to choose what they want, rather than fitting into pre-defined roles.

3.Do you ever feel as though you are being objectified in your photo shoots or elsewhere?  How does this make you feel?  Do you ever feel empowered by fact that you are potentially being objectified?  I've never done a photoshoot (yet!), but I have been known to get a lot of looks when I'm out & about.  From men and young girls they're usually appreciative - although in a different way -and from women frankly they usually look at me like I've grown three more heads than normal.  I will never know if I'm being objectified (unless they open their mouth, at which point they'd get it ripped off and shoved down their throat), so I don't make a big deal out of it one way or the other.

4. How do you feel and/or respond to the critique that the “pin-up girl” is created solely for the male gaze?  Perhaps originally it was, but I dress primarily for myself, if other people like it - great!  If they don't - also great!  I think today a lot of women are drawn to the elegance of it - you can be wearing 100% more clothes than any other woman on the street and still have 100% more male attention than those with less clothes - if you so desire it.

5. In what way do you, as a pin-up model, have power?  In what ways do you not?  N/A - not a model

6. What are the biggest challenges and the best parts of being a pin-up model?  N/A - not a model

7. Is there anything that you think that it is important to include or discuss in terms of subject/object relations of the pin-up culture?  Anyone can objectify someone, it is a very simple act, yet the driving force is often very complex - part upbringing, part culture, part peer-pressure, and probably much more than that too.

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Permalink Reply by Laura Byrnes on November 25, 2013 at 1:16pm

1.Do you consider yourself a feminist? Why or why not?

Yes, because I believe that a woman should have the freedom to control her own life and make her own choices, and that she should not be held to a different behavioral standard as a result of her sex.

2.Do you think that feminism can go hand in hand with being a pin-up? How so?

Absolutely. This question is actually anti-feminist, and I'll explain why: It implies that there are standards for female sexual behavior, and that to be a "good" feminist a woman must be careful not to be seen as an "object". Being a sex "object" is not anathema to feminism. Nothing a woman chooses to do is anti-feminist. If a woman chooses to present herself in a certain way, she has just empowered herself to control her own image. It is when we act against our own choices or feel pressured to alter our behavior or image in order to please men, other women, or society at large that our actions become incompatible with the concept of feminism.

3.Do you ever feel as though you are being objectified in your photo shoots or elsewhere? How does this make you feel? Do you ever feel empowered by fact that you are potentially being objectified?

All humans are objectified at one point or another. When we see a good looking man and say to our friend, "Wow, look at his butt. That is an amazing butt" we have just objectified someone. When we create an image using ourselves, we self-objectify by definition. I do not worry about objectification. I worry about the message this objectification sends. We can control our message just as we can control how and when we are seen as "objects". Empowerment comes when we recognize our role and our ability to control the image we present to the world.

4.How do you feel and/or respond to the critique that the “pin-up girl” is created solely for the male gaze?

I respond by pointing out that the main creators (Models, hair and makeup persons, and photographers) and consumers of modern pinup images are women. Additionally, I feel we spend too much time worrying about the male gaze. Men, biologically, are visual thinkers. It is part of our evolutionary success. The problem is not that we give men shiny objects to look at - the problem is when we decide that this is the only thing women should be. Modern Pinup actually subverts this idea by making the images about women in every way. Men are invited to gaze, but they do not dictate what they see.

5.In what way do you, as a pin-up model, have power? In what ways do you not?

A pinup model is a person who has decided to control her own image. This is the most powerful thing a woman can do.

6.What are the biggest challenges and the best parts of being a pin-up model?

n/a I'm not a model ha ha

7.Is there anything that you think that it is important to include or discuss in terms of subject/object relations of the pin-up culture?

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Permalink Reply by JessicaNextDoor on November 25, 2013 at 2:54pm

I feel like you have taught me some things!

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Permalink Reply by Diana Cuevas on November 26, 2013 at 2:02pm

I like your answer to #2 :)

 

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Permalink Reply by Desilu on November 26, 2013 at 1:16pm

1. Do I consider myself a feminist?

Lol, this is a loaded question for me... In high school, my most prolific nickname (2nd only to "bitch") was "feminazi." Given to me by some of my male classmates (shocking, I know), because I was vocal (very much so) about women/girls being equal in all things to men/boys. I remember one debate in my senior economics class, where my BFF and I debated socialism against 2 very conservative, Hispanic classmates (both of whom who gave me my nickname) and we won much to the chagrin of my very male teacher. It reinforced for me that there is nothing I cannot do as well as, if not better than, a man (barring physical things, like produce sperm, etc). I never used that vocality to the "feminist movement" per se, but the ideals never left me, and I have often had to fight a glass ceiling in many different work locales, but minding that the louder I spoke, the higher the chance that I would be fired/let go for being a nusiance (none of my work positions have ever been contractual, but always at-will, meaning the employer could let you go for any reason, without notice, and vice-versa). Now that I am in my mid-30s, I still consider myself a feminist, but more of an egalitarian, allowing all persons regardless of race, religion, sex/gender, sex preference, etc to be treated equally within all aspects of society. I would have to agree with JessicaNextDoor on this definition that she posted in her response. My biggest achievement as a feminist? Ensuring that my son is raised as an egalitarian/feminist, which he is at the wonderful age of 15, against the preconceptions and misconceptions of a very small mountain town that is very conservative in it's thinking. My proudest moment.

2. Do you think feminism can go hand in hand with pinup?

I think feminism can go hand in hand with anything, much like the very wise Ms. Byrnes has pointed out. The way I dress or look should have nothing to do with my ability to earn the same amount as a man for the same job, opportunities, etc.

3. Do you ever feel objectified...?

I do not do photo shoots; I am very shy in front of the camera and do not feel that the resulting image is a reflection of how I feel that I look or the confidence that I think I exude in person. That being said, I think we - both men and women - have a long way to go to get away from the instant objectification of someone from a photo, period (modelled or otherwise). Trolling aside, there are so many people who comment on photo shoots in a negative manner (as to: that's not what a pinup should look like! etc) because the photo is not the ideal objectification of what our concepts and mental images tell us it should be.

As far as being objectified in other places, given that I live in Southern California, objectification is everywhere. I walk down the street - pinned up or in baggy sweats - and men lean out their car windows, off their bikes, front porches, where ever, and wolf whistle as though I am the statue put there for such a reason. I have been known to rant on fb in english and spanish chewing out these a--holes about treating a woman like that (and how they would like it if someone did the same to their mother/daughter/wife). I live in an area where - culturally (and despite the fact that this is a cultural melting pot of the highest order) - it is accepted and expected that women are looked at as objects, and most abhorrently, a lot of the local women allow and encourage it, especially those younger than I. I fight my own battle and hope that my example allows someone younger than I the courage and inspiration to fight hers, for which I will back her wholeheartedly.

4. Pin up as solely for the male gaze...?

I agree with all of the other women's responses; historically, pinup was created as a morale booster in a time of war when men needed it. Over the years, particularly in the most recent past, it has become so much more than that. Now, the highest supporters of pinups on fb, flickr, instagram, social media and the press, are women. However, this has been a double-sided thorn in that we women are the hardest on each other as well as vocal about it on the media. And I truly feel that the men that are supporters - yet trolls - take their lead in nastiness from the other women on the commentary.

5. N/A as I do not model; however, I would think that there is much latitude in being a pinup model (especially for those of you who pay for your own shoots, etc) in that you have complete (ok, maybe not complete) creative control.

6. N/A (see above)

7. Anything else...?

I think the objectification of women by other women, particularly as it relates to social media, as a set-back or affront to feminism might be an interesting look see... There seems to be an endless supply of examples about on social media, and I would think that many of the models who have social media accounts may be willing to discuss in more depth (Ms. Von Teese herself has been known to answer questions as well, which may be an interesting interview to add).

Good luck! Would love to read the final result!!!

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Permalink Reply by Diana Cuevas on November 26, 2013 at 1:57pm

1.Do you consider yourself a feminist? Why or why not?

I certainly consider myself a feminist. Equality for all across gender, race, sexuality, social-economic borders is ideal, but not reality just yet. In regards to gender, we still live in a patriarchal society, so there is still work to be done for gender equality.

2.Do you think that feminism can go hand in hand with being a pin-up? How so?

To me, it's like wearing a new bra or thong, I just feel sexy, and yet no one is seeing that new red thong I'm wearing. Dressing like a pinup is about how it makes me feel and love myself. Does it go hand in hand with feminism? Probably not theoretically, but there's no dress code for being a feminist. 

3.Do you ever feel as though you are being objectified in your photo shoots or elsewhere? How does this make you feel? Do you ever feel empowered by fact that you are potentially being objectified?

Men and women get objectified, that's the blunt truth. Being objectified means you are being treated as an object with disregard to personality and dignity. Looking at a photo, any photo, the audience does not know much about the model, so we all have objectified and judged someone solely based on their looks. We have internalized that feeling sexy is empowering, and that comes with being objectified in photos or by strangers. I personally don't care what people (or men)think (unless it's a man being disrespectful and cat calling me) because I know that for me, feminists ideals are about how much I can accomplish with my education that empowers me, not the way I choose to dress. I don't feel empowered by being objectified, it's actually uncomfortable to have strangers looking at my boobs, and because of that sometimes I rather not wear low cut shirts, but then again, that's not freedom. 

4.How do you feel and/or respond to the critique that the “pin-up girl” is created solely for the male gaze?

I'm sure it was at some point or another, but nowadays, pinup culture is a sub culture that in my opinion, is really trying to showcase and mainstream different body types than we are used to seeing in mainstream media. Back in the day, some feminists tried to move away from being that "uptight" and "prude" woman and liberated themselves by not wearing bras and embracing their inner slut. I'm sure that evolved to wearing very revealing, little clothes, which I'm sure turned out to be a great thing for men (playboy, porn, etc). The pinup culture is about glamour and redefining the standard body type, and that includes pencil skirts instead of mini skirts, high waisted pants,  so we can't really critique pin ups for embracing a different type of sexy.

5.In what way do you, as a pin-up model, have power? In what ways do you not? I'm not a model

6.What are the biggest challenges and the best parts of being a pin-up model? im not a model

7.Is there anything that you think that it is important to include or discuss in terms of subject/object relations of the pin-up culture?

I think women should read Ariel Levy "Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture". It dives deep into feminism and how many of us are active participants of self-objectification. The discussion is not really about men anymore, but more about how women too can be chauvinist pigs and believe that it means embracing sexual liberation. There is definitely more to sexual freedom and the women's movement and how it has created a raunch culture.

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Permalink Reply by Shy Anne on November 28, 2013 at 2:22am

There are a lot of great answers here but I figured I would pitch in my two cents. 

1.Do you consider yourself a feminist? Why or why not? - Yes I am a feminist. I believe that women should be more than just a 'pretty face'. I value myself as a person, and as someone who can do my job better than most of the men in my field, but despite that I've been turned down on applications, one recruiter even  blatantly saying "if you had a cock you'd have the job". Feminism is the fight for equal rights and I firmly believe in it. 

2.Do you think that feminism can go hand in hand with being a pin-up? How so?

I believe that feminism is about expressing who you are, doing what you want, and doing so with no social boundaries to tell you that you cannot simply because you are a woman. I know probably five men who regularly dress up as women, one of whom goes to work that way and no one there knows he is a man. Both men and women should be able to express themselves as they wish with no ramifications or harassment. However, (and some might not agree), I do find that in some cases 'pin-up' as it is most commonly expressed (posing to be sexy/half nude/naked/whatever) does damage the respect that you receive in a working environment. I do not understand or get 'raunch culture' because it's degrading to me and it cheapens everything from sexual intercourse to the average male opinion of women. I do however believe that I should be able to dress however I want and I frequently do so because while I am not a sex object to be stared at, dressing in a wiggle dress, throwing on heels, and doing my hair doesn't make me one.  

3.Do you ever feel as though you are being objectified in your photo shoots or elsewhere? How does this make you feel? Do you ever feel empowered by fact that you are potentially being objectified? 

I do not do photo shoots but I have been objectified my entire life no matter what I wear and this doesn't apply just to me. Look up 'women at the gym' and you will see that people have take the time to shoot photos of women's butts in yoga pants, make snide comments about how 'she's too fat to be working out', or even have the nerve to complain that there aren't enough 'hot girls' at the gym. The human drive is geared towards sex and if someone whistles when they see my ass it's not going to matter if I'm in 'socially acceptable' jeans or a skin tight dress. It's still going to happen. However, the 50s look is geared towards attracting attention, which is in part about objectification and self objectification. Although I dare say that since I'm the one putting on the dress I should woman up and accept that I'm going to be stared at. For the most part (and I think this goes towards model photo-shoots as well) you wouldn't put it on if you didn't want to look pretty and that in itself is self-objectification. 

4.How do you feel and/or respond to the critique that the “pin-up girl” is created solely for the male gaze?

I think that originally it was. However, I in no way 'wear pinup for male attention'. To be honest, as someone who has been sexually abused by men, male attention is more than a little frightening. I dress up for me. I, and I believe most women, dress for themselves before dressing for anyone else. You don't go out and buy a dress because you think it will make men stop and ask for your number, you pick a dress because you think "I love this" or "omg that pattern is amazing" or "this is the kind of person I want to look like". I know that raunch culture is a bit different (I.E. bring on the monogrammed bootie shorts and white Playboy Bunny tats) but Pinup is for the most part an entirely different 'ballpark'. 

5.In what way do you, as a pin-up girl, have power? In what ways do you not? 

Anyone who chooses to dress in a provocative manner (whether it be shorts and a crop top or a tight dress) has power in a couple of ways. Dressing in a way that makes you happy gives you confidence and that itself is power. Commanding attention is also power, because attention means that you 'matter' for whatever period of time. Men (and lesbian women) also tend to be more open to manipulation and doing whatever you say when you look 'hot' so if you're into that sort of thing, that is also power. You do not have power in that you cannot control how other people see you in the clothes you choose to wear. You could be wearing heels because they make you happy and someone else will see them and think that you're trying to look sexy. Or wearing a low cut blouse because you like the cut and someone else thinks that you're out hunting for men. As a pinup there is no way to control how other people perceive you, and the most common perception is that you're dressed up so you're a slut, and that is a loss of power in more ways than one.  

6.What are the biggest challenges and the best parts of being a pin-up model?

I think that the biggest challenge is once again being seen for who you are rather than 'sex on a stick'. Men and women are still geared toward the old fashioned ideal that if you dress up and look sexy then you must be trying specifically for that goal. I find that I get more negative reaction from women than from men outside of the pinup scene, but the largest challenge is definitely how people see you.  I think the best part of being a pin-up is actually taking the time to look your best and then walking out with a smile on your face because it makes you happy, judgers be damned. 

7.Is there anything that you think that it is important to include or discuss in terms of subject/object relations of the pin-up culture?

I think that the majority of 'pin up girls' dress this way because they like the look, like the prints, patterns and cuts, and because they're tired of having to put on almost nothing to feel sexy. Pin-Up culture is very much about objectification but in its way it's less skin baring, more modest, and a great deal more demure than something you would see your average 13-15 year old wearing. Earlier this year I saw a mother with two toddlers who couldn't have been more than 2 and 3 years old in a grocery store wearing white hot pants so short that you could see the curves of her buttocks and the tattoo at the very top of her thigh. I went swimming last week where women had applied fake tanner to themselves, get their hair done, and wore rhinestone belly rings because they wanted to feel sexy and because of those things, they couldn't even go swimming. I go to the beach where women wear thongs and Brazilian bikinis, where women spend money on a wax job so that they can look good for a day laying half naked in the sun. I see advertisements with women standing next to things in an effort to sell them. I see music videos that mostly prominently feature semi-nude women as a main attraction. I see strippers making upwards of $250 a night. Our culture is very much about objectification and whether you create an object of yourself by putting on a knee length dress that is maybe a little tight, or by putting on a pair of booty shorts, getting a belly ring, and shouting YOLO at the top of your lungs before downing a cocktail is completely your prerogative. 

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Permalink Reply by cela hyatt on December 4, 2013 at 10:55pm

This is a really interesting topic and I'm actually surprised it hasn't come up sooner.

1) I consider myself a humanist, all people should have the same rights, responsibilities, and treatment. There shouldn't be a "us vs them" mentality that often arises when feminism comes up.  It makes it seem as though women are fighting a war against men, that they are the enemy, in reality we need men and they need us and it doesn't help anybody to have us fighting each other. 

2) I think that pinup or any style really can be considered "feminist" in that a woman (or man) is able to define themselves how they so choose.  Pinup is on the fringe of society, it is a lot more acceptable than some other counterculture groups and has been moving closer to the mainstream.  If you embrace the lifestyle rather than wearing a costume, you are going against the "normal" culture and choosing for yourself who you want to portray yourself to the world.  As opposed to just following the crowd or whatever the fashion czars deem trendy that day.  After reading through the other responses, I have to agree with Laura.  The whole point of the feminist movement was to give women the ability to make their own choices, those choices should be anything not just what the "leaders" deem as being acceptable choices.  For some reason, making the choice to be "traditional", whether it is choosing to be a stay at home mom or dressing in vintage fashions that are reminiscent of the 1950s is seen as an unacceptable choice.  Which in itself is anti-feminist.

3) I wouldn't feel empowered by being objectified, that is the polar opposite of my beliefs (that humans should all be treated as such).  However, by choosing what kinds of photos are out there I am taking control over what I am comfortable sharing and putting out in the world.  The main part of being empowered is being able to set boundaries for yourself, that is why one could argue that by taking risqué pictures a woman is empowered (assuming she hasn't been coerced in anyway) since she is controlling her own sexuality and what image is being shown to the world.  In some ways the modern pinup is more powerful than the men that are "objectifying" her because she is able to control their sexual desires.

4) I love the pinup aesthetic and the old wartime pinup pictures, I think they are beautiful, sexy, glamorous, etc. I am a heterosexual female and I find it very attractive.  It doesn't have to just be for men, though they are the target audience.  I love the beauty and femininity that is expressed in pinup art and that is why I choose to replicate it. 

5) I thin this is along the same lines as 4, by choosing how to express my sexuality I am taking control of it. 

6) the biggest challenge is finding time! As a busy wife and mother, plus full time student, I use pinup modeling as  a recreation that is solely for me.  It doesn't benefit anyone else, it is "me" time.  It is something that makes me feel good about myself and my womanhood.  I think that women can become so defined my their relationships, such as "mother" and "wife" that we can lose identities.  Pinup modeling and the lifestyle has given me an outlet to reclaim my individuality, for a short time I am not seen as someone's mother, I am just a woman, I am just "me". This is a good argument for pinup being a way to express feminism :) 

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Permalink Reply by Tahitia Belle Fille on December 7, 2013 at 8:08pm

Hi Lexi and I really hope that I'm not too late to help contribute to your research paper. Here are my answers :)

1.Do you consider yourself a feminist? Why or why not?

I do consider myself a feminist because I believe in equality and I believe in any person's right to live the life that they choose without limitations or barriers being set on them by others due to their gender.

2.Do you think that feminism can go hand in hand with being a pin-up? How so?

Absolutely yes. I think that both feminism and pinup are positive outlooks and that any confident woman who believes in herself and her right to have her voice be heard can make the pinup look a symbol of their independence. For the record the same can really be said about any look, goth, steampunk, it's whatever speaks best to you as a feminist.

3.Do you ever feel as though you are being objectified in your photo shoots or elsewhere? How does this make you feel? Do you ever feel empowered by fact that you are potentially being objectified?

I can't say that I have no. Though I'm far from the most experienced model, I have been in situations where I was in various states of undress for photoshoots, art classes and even on a TV show once, and never once did I feel objectified because a) in every case I was asked if I wanted to do this and b) I always had the chance to back down and not go through with anything that I didn't want to do. This meant that I was always fully in control of my own fate.

In my opinion the final verdict on whether you're objectified is whether or not you allow yourself to be simply somebody else's object. Where as if you're in control of yourself, how you dress, what pictures you have taken and so on, the answer is no.

Objectification, like any other label, is something that can't be forced upon you without your permission.

4.How do you feel and/or respond to the critique that the “pin-up girl” is created solely for the male gaze?

Hmmmm... I don't know enough about the history of pinup to know for sure if it originated for the male gaze only. In my own experience I've gotten far more comments and compliments from women on the street and on social media about how I look when I'm wearing pinup clothes.

It's such a fun and glamourous look that any woman can get into and make her own, how can women not love it when they see it? To say that it was "created for the male gaze" strikes me as something that an individual that didn't understand the genre fully would think.

5.In what way do you, as a pin-up model, have power? In what ways do you not?

I choose what to wear and when to wear it, and I choose to call myself a pinup. Those are two powers that I have.

If somebody were to take a picture of me without me knowing and post it online with a derogatory comment, well I don't have the power to prevent them from doing that. That's a situation that doesn't just apply to pinups though.

Even then, there are avenue's of action I could take against a poster or troll, they wouldn't always be easy or fast by any means but they are available.

6.What are the biggest challenges and the best parts of being a pin-up model?

Pin curls can take a long while to put in, and Victory Rolls never seem to turn the same way twice for me. In short, hair is the biggest challenge. Being a hard core PUG fan means buying more clothes than you technically "need", and that puts a dent in your wallet very fast.

The best parts however make all of those challenges worthwhile. We live in a world where we're so often closed off from one another at the best of times that it really makes your heart glow with joy to hear a complete stranger stop in their path to tell you that they love you're dress. That little moment of communication between two strangers can really make the darkest day bright again :)

7.Is there anything that you think that it is important to include or discuss in terms of subject/object relations of the pin-up culture?

I think that it would interesting to discuss why it is we've focused on the 1940's, 50's and 60's as the true and deffinitive pinup era, and if it's possible for the steampunk genre and even goth culture to be considered "pinup" in their own way because those are two other looks that I absolutely love and have many friends who rock both looks so well.

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